My little man. How I wish I could go back in time.
My Little Buster,
I’m so sorry. How else do I begin this?
I was teaching today and lecturing my students about the importance of doing independent research when preparing to make decisions for their labor, birth, and the care of their newborn. My final point was to implore them to research every decision. To never proceed with something because some hospital class says everyone is doing it, but rather to research the hell out of it until they are confident that they have all of the information.
And so I come back to this… I’m so sorry.
As a parent, there will be a million things you will look back on and think “Gee… I wish I would have done that differently…”
Usually it’s something minor. Like I got upset over something that was totally age-appropriate behavior. Or you accidentally learned a colorful word while Mommy was driving.
But how in the hell do I apologize for having part of your genitals amputated for NO MEDICAL REASON? When you were less than 24 hours old!
Please let me at least explain why. Where I was coming from. That I thought I was doing what I was supposed to.
As I will explain someday, I wasn’t exactly tech-savvy when I was preparing for my first birth. I just literally didn’t even know anything existed beyond that hospital class and What to Expect.
That hospital class taught us that 95% of boys were circumcised, and that it was more hygienic. I didn’t know this was a lie. And I wasn’t in contact with anyone who could tell me that this was a lie. Looking back, that is not an excuse. The mama bear in me begs my pregnant self to question it, verify it, somehow just double check this number. But I swear to you that my brain was just not wired this way back then. It had never occurred to my naive little mind that a hospital might “misrepresent” facts back then.
As it turns out, in that year, it was actually about 50% of boys who were not being circumcised. Not the mere 5% they asserted (now it’s about 65% who are remaining intact!). And it is not more hygienic to be circumcised… no more so than it is to circumcise a baby girl rather than teach her to properly clean her labia. But apparently it was still a-okay with this hospital to hack off the genitals of baby boys. Hell, the hospital openly encouraged it.
God, I wish I had known even ONE person at that time who had chosen NOT to circumcise. I didn’t have a religious reason to circumcise, so that might just have been enough to nudge me into researching just a little more.
But all I had was that stupid hospital class, so I consented to have you circumcised. And there I go downplaying it. Sending blame away from myself. The truth now… not only did I consent, I think I actually asked the doc when you would be circumcised. If only ONCE someone had mentioned that it wasn’t medically necessary, I know I would have questioned it. But no one did, so I willingly handed you on over.
I remember briefly feeling sad that something about your perfect little self would be changed… and then feeling selfish because “after all, this was a medically necessary procedure, done for your own good.”
I vaguely remember asking if they use anesthetic and something was said about sugar water (I was going on 36 hours of not sleeping because of my stupid induction and cesarean, so I wasn’t in top form). Good frigging God, I was so stupid. As far as I can tell, you had part of your genitals forcibly ripped off at less than 24 hours old with absolutely no anesthesia.
I’m sobbing now, writing this. I just want to go back in time and kick my own ass. What the hell was wrong with me?
But the way my brain worked back then, it never occurred to me that something so horrific… the outright torture of a newborn… would be even remotely legal. I thought it was really medically necessary like that hospital class had taught us, and I thought you hadn’t felt it.
And when you were a couple of months old, right as I was learning that your cesarean birth could have been avoided, I also learned the truth about circumcision. That there is no medical reason. And that the majority of boys are remaining intact these days.
God, I sobbed.
I’m so sorry.
And then I became pregnant with your little brother. You two are only 19 months apart. It took some convincing of your daddy, but he eventually consented that the evidence showed that there was not a medical reason to circumcise. So then it was just a matter of having him admit that you and your soon-to-be brother having matching penises was not a valid reason to amputate anyone’s genitals. And your sweet daddy very quickly came around.
You are five, and little bro is three. So far, there have been no questions as to why your penises look different. How will I answer that when it does come up? When you are still little I think I will keep it generic, so as to not freak you out. “Mommy made one decision for you, and another for your little brother.” So far each of you thinks that your penis is the most awesome thing since … well, since anything, so I don’t think it will be an issue.
But when you are older… a man… I would like to explain things more truthfully… and apologize.
I can only pray to God that you will be able to understand why I made such a poor decision, and forgive me.
So for all of the parenting moments I look back upon, wishing I could re-do, having you circumcised is the only one I have utter remorse for.
With much, much love,
Your Mommy
Tags: Childbirth Classes, Circumcision
Great, moving post. Again I will be posting a link to you on my blog. I haven’t done a post on circumcision yet (I need to get on it!), and I think this would be a great addition. My husband, too, tried to use the “matching penis” argument, and he was not as easy to sway as yours. With us it came down to my complete and utter stubbornness once I make my mind up, and the fact we gave birth at a birth center- no circs done on site. Which meant I would have to take him to the doctor to get it done. So I told Scott I wasn’t going to take him, he couldn’t make me, and if he wanted it done so badly he could take him himself (not very mature, I know). And this is just an amusing side note, but my Mother in law told me once that his diapers were leaking because he wasn’t circumcised:)
As an intactivist I give you kind words. Thanks for telling your experience. I would like to know which hospital gave such horrible advice (and unethical considering they make money on circumcisions). At age five, different penis are just that, different. At age six, it could be a different story. IYou have time to mull over when you want to tell your circumcised son about foreskin restoration done by tension. Your husband (and you) would also benefit from restoration. I suggest using the SenSlip for about a month to de-keratinize and feel the improvement. This is a fast way to see if he wants to commit to being dedicated to restore.
Meanwhile I want to say I’m touched by your story. Please document everything iota about your son’s circumcision. This will probably help him too come to terms. It’s an added measure of showing you care and also may be useful in suing, should he want to. Unfortunately suing is not done because how many 18 yo are that savvy. Even the CDC says 33% and 35% teenage boys are incorrect about their intact and circumcised status. Also records are lost by this time. He would like to know who, where, why, and by what method. You have grounds to sue too. Clearly proper consent was not had. Contact David Llewellyn, circumcision (google).
I chose circumcision at age five because the look was more interestingly revealing. Having experienced problems- loss of sensation the biggest one, I know circumcision is the biggest mistake of my life. I remember my circumcision and I was capable at the time thinking this elective procedure meant we had money to spare, slightly above middle class.
You can expect your intact son to now and then miss the toilet as he grows. This is because the penis grows faster than the foreskin, so it grows into the foreskin. This means the foreskin is constantly changing positions to accommodate and well “oops”. It’s not from his lack of trying to aim. The process of the foreskin separating from the glans is an itchy process. Itching and manipulation by your son is also mother nature’s way of speeding the separation process along. Refrain from using soap under the foreskin and especially bubble bath. The foreskin maintains a pH balance for health. It is part of the immune system. Soap can imbalance the pH and may lead to infections. Or use pH balanced soap. The foreskin is like the vagina, eye lids, inside of the mouth. You don’t put soap here right? Only the foreskin’s owner should retract his foreskin. So never leave him unattended with medical staff, even at offices you know (they may have a new or substitute person). It literally only takes one second to do great penile damage. A mother has said she turned her back for one second. The resulting tears of the penis can make the whole penis swell up and can cause permanent scarring that restricts the foreskin from stretching properly that my lead to partial of entire circumcision. A benefit of intactness is little care. Just clean what is seen.
Frank, thanks for mentioning the toilet/aim issue. It was not something I had thought about or even realized, and my intact son (who is old enough to aim) has been frustrating me by leaving messes. Not having a penis myself, I had no idea that it might be a (physical) developmental thing. I will be more patient with him. Thank you.
Nicely written, Frank!
I’m taking this opportunity to educate not to criticize. On the contrary, thank you. Hope this is helpful for you too Brandi.
The sexual function of the Dartos muscle that sheathes the penis and scrotum. Upon erection the dartos tenses up to create a one piece solid skin tube for where ever action on this tube is transferred to act on the erogenous Taylor’s Ridged Band and through its loop to and from the Frenulum, this action acts on the frenulum. All action of the shaft acts on these erogenous structures, the Ridged Band and Frenulum. No action is wasted.
Circumcision always removes all of the Taylor’s Ridged Band and part to all of the Frenulum. Action on the shaft is wasted to act on these erogenous gone and truncated structures. Action must be applied directly to the frenulum remnant if any remains (65% receptors cut off). It is not uncommon in infant circumcision to have the Frenulum scrapped off. This means 85% of the sexual receptors are cut off leaving 15% located at glans corona which are overpowered by the more populous pain/thermal receptors located throughout the glans, at a ratio of 5% to 95%. Here men often say (Larry David) “If I felt anymore sensation, I think I would die of a heart attack!” Thus feeling the wrong sensation.
Tearing the foreskin away from the glans means the true circumcision scar is from the cut line up to include the glans tip. All is a skin scar thickening and measure loss of sensation. Keratinization also is a measured loss. Circumcision cuts off man’s built-in surrogate vagina that teaches how best to pleasure himself and his partner. A circumcised penis gets use to the hand, wholly different than the vagina. It takes 10x the pressure for vaginal entry with a circumcised penis. Loss of contended pleasure is reflected in studies by the reported need for contrivances of those circumcised. Lube, toys, mental imagination, porn. The angle of penetration is also different. The circumcised member wants to activate the frenulum remnant, thereby thrusting downward. Whereas the vagina wants a more upward thrust. The intact man need only gentle thrusting that keeps him close to the woman’s pubes for vaginal orgasm. In fact it is common for intact men to be able to orgasm by doing Kegal excercises when erect. Each clinch on the prostate enlarges the glans which retracts the foreskin enough to lead to orgasm. Men who get circumcise report sensation loss, in both breadth AND depth. My favorite birthing site DrMomma.
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/cut-vs-intact-outcome-statistics.html Cut vs. Intact Outcome Statistics 2010
Ref’s.:
http://www.norm.org/frenular.pdf foremost penis expert Dr. John Taylor’s Frenular Delta
http://research.cirp.org/ World’s foremost penis expert Dr. John Taylor’s site
http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html Sorrells et al. Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis
http://knol.google.com/k/the-ridged-band-of-the-human-prepuce# The Ridged Band of the Human Prepuce
http://www.norm.org/lost.html “The Lost List” What is lost to circumcision and what can be restored.
http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html Complications of Circumcision from Stanford School of Medicine
http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/10F/7fustration_to_orgasm.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/cansever/ Psychological Effects of Circumcision by Gocke Cansever
http://www.davidwilton.com/files/johnsonmalegenitalmutilation2010.pdf Johnson, M. Male genital mutilation: Beyond the tolerable?
Be kinder to yourself, Peachy. Circumcision is not perpetuated rationally. You were the victim of a great memeplex (a consstellation of units of culture transmitted by imitation), in other words an unconscious conspiracy. We’ve all made mistakes, and there’s no going back. You can learn what you can from the experience in order not to repeat it and move on. And you can do what you can to protect others from making the same mistake, and that’s what you’ve done here. With any luck, this blog will protect more than one baby from circumcision, so the net outcome will be positive. I’m going to post a link to here on my blogs page (http://www.circumstitions.com/blgos.html), to help multiply the effect.
I suggest you start your explanation to Buster vaguely (something like “We had something done to yours because they said it made it easier to keep clean, but by the time [little brother] was born, we found out we didn’t need to” – no lies, just not all the truth all at once), and fill in the details as he asks for them.
Whoops! http://www.circumstitions.com/blogs.html of course.
I’m so glad I became an intactivist now, before I have any children. I know it’s easy to beat yourself up over it, but you can only move forward. Use this terrible experience for good. Teach as many other parents as you can.
Thanks for your story. It was very touching.
What a moving and totally relevant story of your encounter with this. I totally get where you are coming from and I thank you for sharing your experience. My son is now 12 and I still to this day regret having this done to him. I was in a marriage (at the time) where I was dominated by a man who was much older than I and he would not hear of my begging to not have this done! I kept asking him – if it’s meant to be taken from him then why the hell is he born with it in the first place? I remember crying in the car on the way to the Dr’s surgery when my son was 6 weeks old!! As it turned out, his daddy wanted his son (my baby boy) to look like him!!!!!! Heaven forbid that you can’t see their penises in public and that people might suffer mistaken identity HELL NO… I thought facial features was enough to clarify that he looked like his father!!!! Some men are still quite neanderthal in their thinking – even that is a wrong description as I bet they didn’t do this way back then! I too will apologise to my son (crying now) soon as the time is nearing and explain the belief systems of others I was subjected to at the time and how my tiny female voice was not relevant to some…. if only I had been the stron woman I am today – back then, I could have kicked and screamed a bit – no a LOT louder to not have this ‘procedure’ done. Might I add that I believe a lot of my son’s anger growing up culminates from this very thing he had no choice or voice in as he too AT SIX WEEKS old was not aneasthatised! My God, what was I doing??
I am going to make a booking with a kinesiologist right now and try to get this sorted and find some healing for him. It’s the least I can do as his mother. I know that sounds like I’m trying to ease my own guilt – which indirectly it may, but why should my son carry around the hurt of another’s decision for his own body which he knows nothing about? May God Bless You All and Angels carry you when on their wings xxxx
I thank you once again for sharing and for being a leading voice for so many Mothers who I’m sure – like me – were naive ‘back then’!! xx
This , too, has been my biggest mistake as a mom.
I had the facts wrong. I grew up hearing how got it was to circumsize.
I one day will have to apologize to my son.
I am heartbroken because of it.
I wished I had done more reading about it.
I get how you feel. Hugs,
Alex
Thank you for sharing. Please don’t beat yourself up. We love you.
Thank you for this post. It might give another mother that one mention that spurs on the research- you might just be the reason other boys stay whole! Thank you!
My heart goes out to you and your son. If I may add, you look VERY young and naive in that photo. It reminds me of photos of myself with my babies. I’ve made parenting mistakes, and I’ve tried not to punish myself for who I WAS but live the best I can now as who I AM. My son (who was stillborn) would have been left intact mainly because of how rare circ is here now, and because of an intact brother. Would *I* have questioned it, at 20, in your shoes? I’d like to think so, but I think I’m being extremely hopeful. There are many decisions we think we’re making, which have as much to do with chance and circumstance as any real will on our part. Unfortunately, we often don’t know how little we know until it’s all too late. I hope that when my daughter is a young adult, she will see the naivety of youth in the photos I have of us, and realise that I didn’t know it all and would make different decisions if I had the chance to do it over again. I’m sure with your open discussion and empathy, your son will find that same forgiveness.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for writing this. If only I could have heard a few of those words, or even sensed a fraction of your remorse, from my father or mother, my life today would be SO different. If I had SOME kind of validation that this bizarre disfigurement of my penis was a mistake, my relationship with my parents, the medical industry, and the world in general, might be so much more healthy. For what it’s worth, I, just some old circumcised man, I, forgive you. And thank you for the gift you gave me. Thank you for validating my feelings and acknowledging that what they did to me, and what they are still doing to helpless babies, is wrong.
xoxo
Garrett, I understand you and your feelings. I so wish I could take your pain away. I have enough guilt and remorse for having my baby boy circumcised, that I’m sure I have plenty for you as well. I am truly sorry for my actions some 31 years ago. I will never forget, I will always regret, and I am working on trying to forgive myself. I hope someday I will, but right now, it doesn’t ever seem possible. Love to you.
Doulalee, you have saved more babies from this than you will ever know. There is nothing to forgive really to any mom that learns she was duped, or coerced into allowing this to be done to her son. You moms carry as much pain, if not more, that we boys do. You are also victims of this horrible custom. I honor every one of you that is speaking out against it. You may have let your boys be cut, but they are so lucky to have moms that love them enough to feel their pain, and do all they can to make it right.
xoxo
I’m a Jewish intactivist who embraces with you with all of the love I have. We were all in your situation at one time or another, not necessarily faced with the decision, but faced with the facts being twisted and having to overcome them.
Being an American, it wasn’t until I traveled abroad and dated foreign men that I realized there was something very different. I never thought that the foreskin was gross or anything like that… actually, I was rather curious about it. At a very young age I started doing my own research and through personal experience noticed that my intact male friends were no less ‘clean or hygienic’ than any other man. We all come to this conclusion eventually, even Jewish people like my husband and myself ^_^ Once again, his parents didn’t have all of the facts and were only trying to be good parents.
On another note, if you have paperwork that was given to you by the hospital or your doctor with misguided information you have a right to take legal action. Misrepresentation of the facts and biased opinion is now being considered malpractice and reckless endangerment of a minor. A doctor’s personal opinion is separate from medicine and it must be kept as such. I can help you if you need it. Otherwise, you can encourage your son to sue. I’d be happy to set you up with an attorney and I know that many of my intactivist friends (myself included) would be honored to help pay for justice for your son. We can take up a collection for your case if you’d like ^_^
To error is human, to forgive is divine. We all make mistakes in our lives, some greater than others. You have a very big heart and I know your son will understand how difficult this must have been for you.
XOXOXO
Rachel
Hang in there. We all know what we know when we know it, and not before.
I just wanted to share that a newborn boy recently died at my local hospital as a result of bleeding from a circumcision. I can only wager that if parents knew that this was even a minute risk, they would never allow it. Never.
Best, Sarah
I have a three yr old son when he was born i chose bot to have him snipped although my wife,mother in law, and my own mother tried to tell me otherwise. i was snipped when i was born i just couldnt do it to my child and i am happy I stuck to my guns about this i know he will thank me later.
Thank you for posting my story. You couldn’t have said it better. I share your remorse, I live with it every day. Most importantly, our sons will live with it all of their lives as well. I try to remember that it’s never too late to do something, and that’s why I became a passionate intactivist. If I can save another baby from this torture, I will. Please remember that we were ignorant and this was done as something we thought was best for our babies. Forgive yourself, and I will try to do the same.
Much like the couple in the story, my girlfriend is crazy-advocative of non-circumcizing her son if she ever has one. Me, I’m just now learning all that I can through it. Honestly, I really don’t care who does what with their children. It’s their right and responsibility as a parent to make whatever decisions they deem appropriate and no one… NO ONE should judge them for those decisions, no matter if we agree/disagree in my opinion.
The mommy in this story shouldn’t beat herself up so much over such a small decision as the son shouldn’t take offense to it when he grows up. Going to exhaustive measures to exaggerate such an unimportant procedure (“hacking” her son, etc.) made me laugh as I read this.
I take the same stand on this issue that I do on just about everything. Worry about yourself and stop shoving YOUR beliefs down everyone else’s throats. If people want to circumcize their children, let them! If they don’t want to – just as good.
Why is this such a hot button topic all of a sudden? Geez.
The bits circumcision cuts off stand at the very centre stage of the sexual experience for both sexes. Those bits are also very rich in nerves. The foreskin and frenulum are the most erogenous parts of the male body. It stands to reason that discarding those bits can materially alter the sex life of a man and his partners. These facts may startle you because American medical schools and sex ed don’t teach them, but they are true nonetheless.
American medicine and sex research are blind to the fact that a fair fraction of infant circs result in a damaged penis. There are men with lifelong sexual difficulties because they were circumcised as infants. There are marriages that are unhappy because he is circumcised.
I agree with you that mothers can be too hard on themselves over this. I blame doctors for their willingness to do surgery for which there is no adequate medical justification. The main reason parents American parents have their their infant boys
circumcised is because they fear that if they don’t, he will be mocked in the locker room and the bedroom.
Robert, do you really mean this? “It’s their right and responsibility as a parent to make whatever decisions they deem appropriate and no one… NO ONE should judge them for those decisions” Just to take the most estreme cases, look up Joseph Fritzl, or closer to home, Warren Jeffs. We are all members of the human community, and we all have a right and responsibility to protect each other from harm, no matter who is doing it – even close kin.
Circumcision is not “an unimportant procedure” when the downsides can go all the way to serious sexual impairment, loss of the penis and death. Thanks to the Internet, more and more men are coming forward – some on this very page – to say how much they resent having had this done to them, and they have every right to do so.
I wish my parents and the doctors hadn’t shoved THEIR beliefs down MY throat when I was helpless to speak up about it. They cut away more than my flesh, they took away my freedom of choice over MY OWN body. I agree, NO ONE has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else. That includes my parents. My body, MY choice.
xoxo
Couldn’t have said it better myself Garrett. My heart goes out to you.
I could have written this, word for word
Thank you for posting this.
Many doctors and RNs in the USA do not feel free to exercise their professional judgement in this matter, and to advise mothers not to have their baby boys cut.
Before Wiswell’s work on UTIs, there was not one iota of scientifically credible evidence supporting routine circumcision. The practice spread because talking about the foreskin, and teaching sons to clean under it, took mothers out of their prudish comfort zone. Doctors catered to these feelings for the money. As the 20th century progressed, prudishness declined but hospitals continued to circumcise for the money, and encouraged mothers to do it by exploiting their fear that if they didn’t, their sons would be deemed to lack proper middle class origins or simply seen as odd.
BTW, I do not endorse Wiswell’s conclusion re foreskin and UTIs. I am only saying that his work was better than superstition and quackery.
I too, deeply regret what I did to my perfect little boy. I was ignorant. I thought it was an unnecessary piece of skin that just got in the way. I should have known. One day I will have to explain to him what I did and why. It breaks my heart to know what I took away from him.
If every expectant parent contemplating circumcision just looked in to what the foreskin actually is, and what it does, no one would do it.
It should be required before a parent can consent to having it removed. It astounds me that parents can consent to cutting off a part of their child’s body without even knowing what it is for.
I’m so sorry I didn’t know.
Thank you to everyone. I would love to go back and leave personal replies for each of you, but alas it is the day before T-Day and I have a ton of cleaning and prep-work to do! This turkey isn’t going to brine itself.
I am so touched by all of the support I have received here on the blog, on facebook, and elsewhere in the days since I posted this. You guys have no idea how much it means to me to encounter so much kindness and understanding.
My heart goes out to all those mama’s and papa’s who learned too late the adverse consequences of consenting to have their little boys circumcised. I commend them for standing up and spreading the word to end the practice and protect other boys. The regret in their voices is so sincere and painfully heartfelt. Their voices need to be heard to help end the still popular practice of amputating parts of male children’s penises in the 21st century. It is highly probable that in your young childrens’ lifetime the U.S.A.’s 1996 Federal Female Genital Mutilation Act will be amended to protect the genital integrity rights of all little boys too. What a day it will be for rejoice as well as a reflection of sorrow and regret for the millions of males who have undergone genital cutting and unnecessary amputative surgeries without their consent.
[...] Public Apology to my Circumcised Son http://peachykeenbirth.com/blog/2010/11/21/a-public-apology-to-my-circumcised-son/ (A mother expresses her deep regret at circumcising her first son after she learns the [...]
Thank-you for sharing this honest account of your story. Your sons have a great Mom. I have put a link to this post in a blog post I just wrote with resources about circumcision… http://tiny.cc/nocirc
I think your story is very helpful to others. Thanks again.
There are many Jews who oppose circumcision too, and our voices are starting to be heard.
Gonnen: Protect the Child (in Hebrew)
http://www.gonnen.org
Kahal: Giving Up Brit Milah (in Hebrew and English)
http://www.kahal.org
Beyond the Bris: A Jewish Intactivist Blog
http://www.beyondthebris.com
Jews Against Circumcision
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org
Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org
Thank you for writing this. I feel exactly the same way. I consider agreeing to have my son circumcised to be one of the worst parenting decisions I have ever made. I signed the papers and the moment they removed him from the room to perform the procedure, I felt sick to my stomach. I am angry at myself for not only agreeing to do it but for not running down the hall after him once the feeling of dread came over me.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For writing this.
I cried all through reading this, and I wish I could hug you. You are a good mom and I know your children will know you love them.
I echo the sentiments of Peachy. When my son was born in 1998, my ex-wife and I had little discussion on the matter. I am circumcised, my father is circumcised and her father and brother are circumcised. Why wouldn’t we do to our son what was a norm for our family? We didn’t understand the risks. We didn’t understand the permanent damage that we were condoning. We did not understand the history of circumcision in the U.S. nor its root in puritanical aims to deter masturbation. We were simply uninformed and did not understand the gravity of our decision to circumcise our son.
Now it is too late. We stole that choice from him and his body is permanently altered. I have apologized to him. The tears ran down my cheeks. He has forgiven me but at his young age he cannot comprehend the consequences of that decision. Do not repeat our mistakes. Leave your sons whole as nature/god intended them to be. Allow them the autonomy over their bodies that is rightfully theirs alone. Let’s end this barbaric custom of infant genital mutilation!
- James Pate, MD
Thank you so much for being brave enough to share this. Thanks to you and other parents and intactivists, my husband and I have decided against circumcision, even though my husband was circumcised. You’re a great mom, and don’t ever forget that!